Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT_ZIP/spacedig/V16_0/V16NO097.ZIP/V16NO097

Internet Message Format | 1993-07-13 | 29KB

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 05:00:35
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V16 #097
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Sun, 31 Jan 93       Volume 16 : Issue 097

Today's Topics:
            Catch-22: (was Using off-the-shelf components)
                DC-1 eventual construction question...
Fluidic envelope on a point gravitational source suspended in a uniform field
                         GIF Lunar Earth Rise
                         IMDISP 7.9 and VESA
                    Reason for SSTO/DCX and Market
Reasons for SS(was Re: Precursors to Fred (was Re: Sabatier Reactors.))
                        Research Project Ideas
                      Science Fair JUDGES WANTED
            Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger (8 msgs)
                    Using off-the-shelf-components

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 13:39:23 GMT
From: Rich Kolker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Catch-22: (was Using off-the-shelf components)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ata Etemadi) writes:
>
>
>Funny, I've never had an airline ask me if my equipment was
>"air-qualified," much less subject it to vibration, outgassing,
>or ECM tests.  That's the difference between a transportation
>system and an expendable artillery shell.

Max Hunter, in his SSX paper, talks about 747's being "man, woman and child"
rated without all the expensive standing army overlooking each flight.
I think he's on to something there.  Still, off-the-shelf does make it to
orbit on shuttle.  They've flown a camcorder purchased here at a local
discount store, and the astronauts are very fond of some Houston produced
tortillas.

NASA JSC is very interested in using "Commercial Off The Shelf" (COTS)
hardware and software, but they still need to learn COTS doesn't mean
"We'll buy it, then you'll change it to our specs at your expense.
It means you get what you pay for!

++rich
-------------------------------------------------------------------
   rich kolker       [e-mail]
                         < Do Not Write In This Space>
--------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:37:27 GMT
From: "Edward V. Wright" <[e-mail]>
Subject: DC-1 eventual construction question...
Newsgroups: sci.space

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Well, lets not limit this to Boeing.  I know less about the development cycle
>for MD, and the rest of the people mentioned in earlier posts that want to
>build SSTO's.

>The real question is again "what specifically will it take"...  two separate
>companies making orders...?

In the case of McDAC, it will almost certainly take some kine of
outside funding.  McDonnell Douglas is on the ragged edge right
now.  It desperately needs a new, profitable product line (or six)
in order to survive.  It may not be able to survive without Delta
Clipper, but it might not be able to survive with it, either.  Right
now, the company is looking very closely at the bottom line, and
doesn't have a lot of cash to throw into new projects.


>Assuming that the airline operational characteristics can be met (or hell,
>even double that cost), and assuming that the tourism paper from that U.K.
>guy is right, can you make money and pay off one of these things flying
>say, 5 guys a week, at $50k per head, with a satellite launch for 1 or 2 mil
>every other flight?

You won't have a satellite launch every other flight.  Maybe every
hundred flights.  Compared to the VIP passenger transport, express
delivery, and space tourism markets, the satellite market is miniscule.
Even if micro and minisats develop the way we expect/hope they will.

Reducing the cost of launches will increase the demand for satellite
launches, but not very much.  (Economists would say the market is
inelastic.)  ABC News, for example, wanted its own recon satellite
(Mediasat), but was only willing to pay $5M for it.  Mediasat would
currently cost $200M to build.  If you had a low-cost space-transportation
system, you could build a heavier, more robust satellite costing perhaps
$10M, but you can't do it for $5M no matter what.  If you talk to potential
customers, you will find this pattern repeated over and over again.


>Can you put 5 guys up for a week in the payload bay of a proposed SSTO? or
>is it more like 10?

Fa!  You could put five guys up for a week in the cabin of a 707
parked at Las Vegas International Airport.  So what?

The Japanese want to build a hotel in orbit -- a big wheel, like
the one in 2001.  They expect their major markets to include
honeymoons and space weddings.

The construction costs might run $1 billion, using industrial
construction techniques.  The Japanese construction companies
who worked on the design didn't even bother to price construction,
because given what it would cost to launch the station using the
Shuttle ($46 billion), construction would get lost in the noise.

Those are the kind of markets we have to think about.  Those
are the kind of markets that will justify an SSTO.


>These figures are so rough it hurts my hands to type them.  What are more
>reasonable numbers.  Who puts them together?

G. Harry Stine presented a detailed paper on this at Making Orbit '93.
If I can dig it out, I'll give you some of his numbers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 14:10:14 GMT
From: James Meritt <m23364@mwunix>
Subject: Fluidic envelope on a point gravitational source suspended in a uniform field
Newsgroups: talk.origins,sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Benjamin T Dehner) writes:
}    Lets examine one possible problem by calculating the Roche Limit.
}This is given in Zelik and Smith (derived from conisdering the self-gravity
}of the earth compared to the gradient of the Saturn gravitaional field)
}to be about (assuming a rigid body)
}             d = Rearr*(3*Msat/Mear)**(1/3)
}so the above guestimates give us d = 1.1e10.  (If we use the original Roche
}formula for fluid, instead of rigid body, we get about 1.9e10.  So it does
}apear that earth will be outside of the Roche limit.  However, even though
}outside the Roche limit, there is still one hell of a gradient force which
}cannot be neglected.

Nice analysis.  However, I think that I specified some magical suspension, not in
freefall.  Earth would NOT be orbitting, but suspended.  Can you redo?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 16:56:51 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: GIF Lunar Earth Rise
Newsgroups: sci.space

--
Hi

Can somebody tell me where I can find the famous Lunar Earth Rise photograph
in gif format?  Or does it exist at all?
The picture I am thinking of was taken in one of the Apollo Missions,  with
the lunar landscape in the foreground and the earth just rising above the
horizon.

Thanks

*******************************************************************************
Shu-Hon Yu                                   Internet: [e-mail]
Mayo Clinic                                  Voice: [phone]
200 First Street SW                          FAX: [phone]
Mail Stop 2D-336 STM
Rochester, MN  55905
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 1993 16:09 UT
From: Ron Baalke <[e-mail]>
Subject: IMDISP 7.9 and VESA
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Martin Connors) writes...
>Having had IMDISP7.7a give sort of good results with VESA VGA (nice
>display of images except there were horizontal lines every 100 or so
>lines), I downloaded 7.9 and find that I cannot get images to display
>properly at all - sometimes nothing, sometimes a vertical white bar.
>Anyone got VESA experience with imdisp 7.9. BTW this is with a Local Bus
>Tseng T4000-based clone? board, and I use a VESA driver (ETIVESA) in a DOS
>shell under Windows.

IMDISP currently does not support VESA.  There were some experimental
VESA drivers put in about a year ago, and it somewhat works with some of
the ET4000 graphic boards.  IMDISP has never been advertised to work
with the VESA drivers, but I do plan to add them in.  Right now, the
VESA drivers are number 4 on my priority list.  First, I'm fixing a bug with
the  DISP CEN command (so that the JEI CD-ROM can be released), and then
add lat/lon for the Magellan and Viking CD-ROMs, and add image tiling for the
Magellan CD-ROMs.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | [e-mail]
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Every once in a while,
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | try pushing your luck.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     |

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 93 19:41:17 GMT
From: Lab Master <[e-mail]>
Subject: Reason for SSTO/DCX and Market
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>
>The ticket will cost (round trip) $100,000 to $200,000 (assuming you pack

[for a SSTO/DCX trip]

>them in like sardiens for a very uncomfortable trip). That's roughly a
>years pay for a typical corporate senior executive.
>
>This is not a very big market.
>
A few weeks ago, on "Beyond 2000", they had a clip about the SSTO/DCX.
They claimed that a round trip would cost approximately the same as a
current round-the-world trip would cost (2000-3000 US$).  That's fairly
reasonable... hey, I might even splurge for a few-orbit trip, and I work
for the state!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:16:13 GMT
From: "Brian J. Glass" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Reasons for SS(was Re: Precursors to Fred (was Re: Sabatier Reactors.))
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>F2. Earth observation.  Doesn't make much sense in a 28-degree orbit,

But it might in a 51.6-degree orbit...

>paintings.  I guess it would be good for testing out prototype systems
>which might need human attention, or for studying the tropics.  For a
>long while, Space Station owned a big fancy polar-orbiting platform to
>do Earth-obs stuff; as years went on, even Congress recognized the
>orthogonality (-: to what Fred was doing and NASA broke it out into a
>separate multibillion-dollar project we now know as the Earth
>Observing System.

At 51.6, the added coverage and the ability of P.I's to thereby jump the EOS
queue would probably resurrect F2 somewhat.

Brian Glass
[e-mail]

These are my own opinions, of course...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 17:56:14 GMT
From: Wesley D Scott <[e-mail]>
Subject: Research Project Ideas
Newsgroups: sci.space

What would you recommend for a research project for a Civil Engineering
PhD project?  (BS Chemical Engineering, MSE Mechanical Engineering
[thermal sciences area], I'm changing fields one more time)

I would prefer something in the structural area.  Is there any
possibility that the space habitats (colonies) proposed by O'neill
will be built in the next century?  If so what would be the
research project which would contribute the most at this stage to
making that possible?

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 93 15:40:07 GMT
From: Jim J Moskowitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Science Fair JUDGES WANTED
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.geo.geology

   The Delaware Valley Science Fairs are seeking research-experienced
scientists, engineers, and technologists willing to volunteer one (1) day to
help one of the most important science education programs in the Delaware
Valley.  The 1993 DVSF will be judged Thursday, April 1st, 1993 at the
Philadelphia Civic Center.  Judging requires a full day.  Criteria for
evaluating science projects will be provided (as will breakfast and lunch).
   Contact with student scientists in a Science Fair is an interesting
experience for scientists or technicians with training and recent experience
in any field of medicine, science, or engineering.  To volunteer as a
Science Fair judge, contact:

Dr. Lee Bennett
The Franklin Institute
Franklin Parkway at 20th St.
Philadelphia PA  19103
[phone]

or email your name and mailing address to [e-mail]

--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jim Moskowitz                   "All you can logically say about
[e-mail]     a guy who thinks he's a poached egg
                                 is that he's in the minority." - James Burke

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:50:00 -0500
From: Tim Tyler <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space

 SB> Just a reminder- 7 years ago today- 11:38am EST....

 SB> So, where were you when the Challenger disaster took place?

I was at work at Harris Corporation on the Space Coast.  I was working outside that day so witnessed the whole thing first hand.  I remember seeing the initial burst and thinking instantly that something looked wrong, then the SRBs went twirling off in separate directions.  It felt like the whole world paused for a moment, then pandemonium erupted. Every radio in earshot was immediately tuned to the AM NASA broadcast channel...We didn't get much more work done that day.  It was a fairly windless day, I thi



nk the cloud that was created by the explosion hung in the sky for hours, it was there when I left work.

Most of my family has worked at the Space Center since before the Mercury-Redstone days, I remember my Mom was in tears when I called home right after the accident.  In Brevard County most businesses and schools flew the flag at half mast for over six months.

I also remember the Return to Flight mission a couple years later...Traffic was stopped all over the Space Coast and people were standing on cartops and rooftops as far as you could see.  You almost couldn't hear the rumble from the Shuttles engines for all the cheering that went on that day.

I think I cried both days..

Tim

=======================================================================
FarPoint Station, Rockledge, FL                 :
SysOp: Timothy S. Tyler                         :  It's the end of the
FidoNet 1:374/48.0 [phone]               :  world as we know it
Packet: -----------------------------           :  and I feel fine...
Internet: [e-mail] :
=======================================================================

 * Origin: FarPoint v32b/v42b >407-631-9198< FIDO.UUCP.SFNET (1:374/48)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 13:35:33 GMT
From: "Harvey Brydon (918" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Simon E. Booth) writes:
>Just a reminder- 7 years ago today- 11:38am EST....
>
>So, where were you when the Challenger disaster took place?
>
My wife and I went on a vacation to the Bahamas.  It was really cold, colder
than back home in Houston, made me wonder why we went on vacation.  Same
weather as at the cape.  This was the first launch I didn't see live, and when
I heard that it exploded, I kind of felt a bit responsible for not doing the
usual cheerleading...
_______________________________________________________________
Harvey Brydon         | Internet:   [e-mail]
Dowell Schlumberger   | P.O.T.S.:   [phone]
   Climate is what we expect; weather is what we get.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:41:45 GMT
From: "Simon E. Booth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>I know people are tired of hearing this this newsgroup,
>but I am still not convinced NASA told us all about
>the last moments of the astronaunts.  Then there is
>another part of me that says it is not my business.
>
>I think perhaps the opening crash scene in the new
>movie "Alive" capture some of the terror in an
>aerospace accident.

In alt.folklore.urban there was a discussion a while back about what
are allegedly the last words heard on the flight recorders salvaged from
plane crashes.

There was speculation (albiet probable urban folklore) about the recorder
from the Challenger still recording after the orbiter was destroyed.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:47:29 GMT
From: "Simon E. Booth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Guillot, Burt J.) writes:
>I was in 6th grade on my way to gym class (second period).  On the way
>there, something mentioned "the shuttle blew up".  I thought it was a
>joke.  Nothing was mentioned in second period.  I went to third period.
>Nothing was mentioned and everyone in the class I asked about it
>thought I was joking.  I then went to lunch, and the principal of the
>school was standing there, so I decided to ask her.  She cofirmed my
>fears that it had blown up, but I still could not really believe it.
>After that, during fourth period, my English teacher was the first
>teacher to mention it.  Many of the students commented about how they
>saw it happen "live" during their science class 3rd period.  The thing
>strange about that though was that I first heard of it, before it
>"happened" on the way to second period.  I don't remember the time
>schedule of classes, so I can't confirm which period it would have
>occured in, but that's something that bothered me ever since.

Even more errie, in December 1985 (around the 28th or 29th) I had this
dream about a shuttle catching fire (flames spewing out of one of the
boosters) and seeing it on TV just before it exploded. The name clearly
visible on the orbiter just before fade out was 'Challenger'.

I still regret not having told anyone about this.  The morning it happened
I remember getting this icy cold feeling around the time the disaster
occured, before I even heard about it.
Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:53:40 GMT
From: "Simon E. Booth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space

Thanks for responding to my posting about the Challenger.

Perhaps not a formal tribute but a tribute nontheless.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 19:00:19 GMT
From: "Simon E. Booth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

In article <5=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sean Michael Gallagher) writes:

>Where were you?  I was in grade school, and it was raining so we were inside
>for our lunchtime recess.  The teachers let us watch the launch live (My
>teacher was a teacher-in-space candidate.)  We spent the whole afternoon
>trying to figure out what happened, and the flag was lowered to half-staff
>that day and for the following week.  I can't believe they wouldn't let you
>discuss one of the most tragic events in recent history.
>Sean

We tried to find out the real motives for this, but we never did.  All we
knew was that there was this unwritten prohibition covering anything that
was pro-space.

What really p---ed me off was that in April when Libya was bombed all these
people were going around saying how we should feel sorry for the Libyans!

And in May those who told jokes about Chernobyl (myself included) got alot
of flak.

In both cases, I would always hear someone say 'But that's not funny-people
died and everything.....'

My reply-'Gee, people died aboard Challenger and you didn't seem to give
a DAMN about that!!'

I even went as far as to denounce ANYONE (students, teachers, administrators)
telling jokes about the disaster or making any anti-space travel comments
When there was talk of sabotage, I remember saying that it was
the Soviets' fault and that Reagan should to something....'hope he
has the guts to push the button--blast their country into a slag heap!'

As you can see the Challenger disaster affected me probably worse than it
did others.

I do think, IMHO, that if we had been allowed to discuss it openly these
thoughts and opinions would have been a little different.

But the day it happened I stood up and swore that if I was called to go on the
next flight, I'd go without giving it a second thought.

Well, I doubt I'll actually go into space (unless the DC gets off the ground
for passenger flights :-) ).  But at least the space program inspired my
interest in other technical matters, and even my interest in a career as
a writer of science fiction.

And now it's funny- in 1986 I called those who discussed joint US-Soviet
spaceflights as 'traitors and madmen', now I wouldn't mind seeing a US-
Russia collaboration in future space flights.

Although I still wouldn't mind seeing the US flag on Mars.  :-)
(no flames for being a bit nationalistic please :-) )

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 17:29:43 GMT
From: Mary Shafer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

On 29 Jan 93 13:43:44 GMT, [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) said:

AWS> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mary Shafer) writes:

>I've seen at least one person call the deaths of the astronauts a
>great tragedy; here in the flight test community, this is not a
>widely-held belief.  Those seven people were doing something that they
>_really_ wanted to do, something that they had volunteered for, waited
>for, trained for.  They knew and accepted the risks.  Their deaths
>were sad, of course, but it was not a great tragedy.

AWS> At the time I was an engineer designing avionics at Texas Instruments
AWS> and most of us felt just like this. It's too bad it happened but it
AWS> isn't a national tragedy. Some of our engineers had been working on
AWS> flight test for the F-111 radar where a few crews where killed. It's
AWS> part of the job.

I work on a base named after a guy who was killed in flight test and
all the streets I drive on are named after dead aircrew.  It's sad,
it's regrettable, but it happens.  I still accept any ride I can in
any airplane (high-performance types preferred since ejection seems
superior to bailing out).

AWS> The one exception I would make would be the teacher. I think the others
AWS> where in the profession and had a realistic understanding of the risks
AWS> involved and could make intelligent decisions regarding it. I don't
AWS> think the teacher was.

I have a friend who was a finalist in the Teacher in Space competition
and he told me that the risk was discussed _extensively_ at every
phase.  Risk was discussed on the applications, briefed when they cut
the list to the two finalists per state, and, in his words, harped on
at the interview stage.

As you say, she may not have had the experience of watching friends
and coworkers die, the way the flight test professionals did, but I
sure that she had as much information as she could use.  Now how
meaningful that information may have been to her is, of course,
another matter.

I personally am of the "it won't happen to _me_" school of thought and
am quite capable of blowing off any amount of statistics about risk
groups, etc.  I drive on surface streets and I eat raw cookie dough;
I'm a real risk taker.

There have been a number of studies that show that people overestimate
the risk of rare events (airliner crashes, for example) and
underestimate the risk of everyday events (driving, for example).
Obviously there's more in the perception of risk than just the
numbers.


--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
[e-mail]                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 93 17:03:42 GMT
From: Steve Masticola <[e-mail]>
Subject: Today in 1986-Remember the Challenger
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle

[e-mail] (Simon E. Booth) writes:


>Just a reminder- 7 years ago today- 11:38am EST....
>So, where were you when the Challenger disaster took place?

I was at the RCA Advanced Technology Laboratories in Moorestown, NJ,
trying to probe a GaAs gate array. Work was going slow. Then the news
hit. We had a TV in the room, and somebody connected it to an antenna
and we saw the whole thing, over and over, intercut with an interview
of Christine McAuliffe. A stark contrast; her beautiful aliveness, and
her hard, violent end.

Some asshole Reaganite kid was braying about how the Russians had
blown up the shuttle. I told him to shut up.

BTW, Christa McAuliffe was partly responsible for inspiring me to
chuck the guns-and-bombs business and go get a Ph.D. She convinced me
that teaching was a more worthy goal than anything I'd been doing
before. I cried when she died.

Some things you never forget.

- Steve ([e-mail]).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 1993 16:44:38 GMT
From: Doug Mohney <[e-mail]>
Subject: Using off-the-shelf-components
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...

>2. Offgassing/outgassing
>
>This test screens for contaminants that are on NASA's no-no list. These include
>things such as PVC's (most commercial electronic connectors and cables are
>have PVC coatings). These offgas clorine, a no-no in the orbiter. There are
>many other tests that are related to this such as the flamablity tests where
>non of your materials can outgas or off gass toxic fumes if they catch on
>fire. This greatly limits the choices of materials that you can use and is the
>reason that you must modify almost all commercial hardware to fly it.

Seems like NASA could lift a page from the environmental workplace types who
are QUITE concerned about fumes release in sealed office buildings. Especially
during fires.

So, building a computer which didn't off-gas would make both you and
Environmental Safety types happy? :)

>>    B) Is there a database of commercial hardware which has been
>>       "flight tested"? If, let's say me and DeLuca want to put
>>       together our own flight experiment, we can just go to a book,
>>       pick out the pieces, integrate them, and get them tested with
>>       a better chance of passing pre-flight checks?

>B) No there isn't and it would be a good thing to have. A qualification here
>is that none of this hardware flys as is. There is ALWAYS some modifications
>that have to be done to meet the above specs.

How much modification? Anything specific? Would it be worth while to start a
company which tried to sell you hardware which certifies hardware for the
shock/vibration & outgassing problems? (EM emissions is going to have to be the
problem of the integrator, I would think, depending on what you use to put the
equipment in, etc, etc...)




                    I have talked to Ehud, and lived.
  -- >                  [e-mail]                        < --

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 097
------------------------------